@NicelyManifest @tzafrir @manlycoffee I'd argue that my proposal is doing just that. Of course it doesn't solve all problems, but it would, I think, put a pretty massive block to the various billionaire and dictator projects designed to wreck democracy in Europe — from Brexit to Orban, the AfD and so on.
So much of their cross-border propaganda activity is promoted by US-owned social platforms. If we don't shut out those platforms here, we've pretty much given up on democracy and Europe.
txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
mastodon
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txtx 🇪🇺
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txtx 🇪🇺
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@tzafrir @manlycoffee @NicelyManifest PeerTube is okay. The problem is media ownership concentration by megacorps. Best solution is ban on large corporate social media platforms, especially foreign ones (X, insta, TikTok...).
France has it for television and print, it should be applied to social in the EU. Germany has an anti-media-concentration law to prevent a full take over in television/news, we should have this to get rid of Meta/YouTube.
France has it for television and print, it should be applied to social in the EU. Germany has an anti-media-concentration law to prevent a full take over in television/news, we should have this to get rid of Meta/YouTube.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@jonny What's stopping execs at a bot company from unleashing waves of bots defending the quality of their AI code by claiming it's coded by humans?
(Just my theory. I can make up stories about AI, since they make up stories about humans all the time, right? It's only fair. )
(Just my theory. I can make up stories about AI, since they make up stories about humans all the time, right? It's only fair. )
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txtx 🇪🇺
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@frog_reborn Fair enough. Either way, if this guy is representative of anti-trump business leadership in America, then it's not enough for me to change my mind. Obviously, we disagree on that. That's ok!
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txtx 🇪🇺
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@frog_reborn Also, hilariously:
'Mr. Griffin, who had previously derided Donald J. Trump as a “three-time loser,” said he voted for the president-elect.'
So, he gave Trump at least a million dollars and he even voted for him.
And I'm supposed to respect these people?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/04/business/dealbook/ken-griffin-trump-election.html
'Mr. Griffin, who had previously derided Donald J. Trump as a “three-time loser,” said he voted for the president-elect.'
So, he gave Trump at least a million dollars and he even voted for him.
And I'm supposed to respect these people?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/04/business/dealbook/ken-griffin-trump-election.html
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@frog_reborn Why, because Trump already spent that million so nothing ever happened?
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txtx 🇪🇺
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@hollowone Just to gently push back, I'm not against capitalism. It's the specific US corporate software culture that I don't support.
I avoid North Korean or Russian products too.
@frog_reborn
I avoid North Korean or Russian products too.
@frog_reborn
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txtx 🇪🇺
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@frog_reborn If someone speaks against you while giving you a million dollars...weird broken culture if this is considered anything but a gag.
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txtx 🇪🇺
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@frog_reborn "Griffin is a longtime Republican donor, giving millions of dollars to conservative groups during the 2024 election cycle. He did not fund Trump’s re-election campaign, but after Trump won, he gave $1m to the president’s inaugural committee."
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@frog_reborn Show me the CEO that has spoken against Trump. There is none.
There are Americans doing great things that I can get behind. None of them are business leaders.
@hollowone
There are Americans doing great things that I can get behind. None of them are business leaders.
@hollowone
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@frog_reborn Ah yes, America, where money is religion and corporations are an ethnicity that I *must* respect and purchase from.
Not a single US CEO, from California or elsewhere, has spoken out against Trump. Many have supported him. And those people want to split up my continent. They're against me.
I don't need to care the slightest bit about US commercial interests.
@hollowone @taylorlorenz
Not a single US CEO, from California or elsewhere, has spoken out against Trump. Many have supported him. And those people want to split up my continent. They're against me.
I don't need to care the slightest bit about US commercial interests.
@hollowone @taylorlorenz
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@hollowone @taylorlorenz 100% this. Any software coming from a Californian/US corporation is essentially toxic to me. They only use bait and switch tactics.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@thesofafox For a working example, have a look at existing foreign media ownership laws in France or Germany, for print/television. They were enacted many decades ago.
They don't prevent every evil thing from happening, but they don't have to. An 80% improvement is an improvement.
They don't prevent every evil thing from happening, but they don't have to. An 80% improvement is an improvement.
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txtx 🇪🇺
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@thesofafox On the topic of banning social media companies: are you a corporation with billions of dollars in revenue? If not, then your US-based Mastodon instance is fine.
That is the easiest part.
That is the easiest part.
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txtx 🇪🇺
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@thesofafox
Ummm...solving problems via lawsuits was the recommendation from the EFF. She's wearing an actual "sue the government" t-shirt in that interview.
I specifically said I *cannot* be expected to sue either these companies nor random internet people, so we need other solutions.
Redirect your rage please.
@andypiper @eff
Ummm...solving problems via lawsuits was the recommendation from the EFF. She's wearing an actual "sue the government" t-shirt in that interview.
I specifically said I *cannot* be expected to sue either these companies nor random internet people, so we need other solutions.
Redirect your rage please.
@andypiper @eff
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@andypiper@macaw.social @eff@mastodon.social I'd like to see the EU ban foreign corporate social media platforms, period. We did it for television and print — there are laws against majority foreign ownership of media in some EU countries. We need to do the same to meta and x and TikTok.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@andypiper@macaw.social @eff@mastodon.social ..the EFF seems to have an American libertarian standpoint here, which seems kind of outdated. It doesn't work.
I can't sue an anonymous user in some random country because they posted something harmful on X. I can't sue Russian trolls. I can't realistically sue meta or x.
Moving to another platform like Mastodon is ok, but that's shifting the burden to users.
I can't sue an anonymous user in some random country because they posted something harmful on X. I can't sue Russian trolls. I can't realistically sue meta or x.
Moving to another platform like Mastodon is ok, but that's shifting the burden to users.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@andypiper@macaw.social @eff@mastodon.social Great interview. I agree with Jon Stewart, there is no free speech on corporate social media platforms.
Using Facebook or X is like watching a film produced in North Korea. You just get whatever Zuckerberg or Musk wants you to see. They kick you out for any reason they choose, they throttle popular opinions and push extremist ones instead.
And for that reason, I don't buy the argument that regulating these businesses is censorship. Those platforms *are* censorship..
Using Facebook or X is like watching a film produced in North Korea. You just get whatever Zuckerberg or Musk wants you to see. They kick you out for any reason they choose, they throttle popular opinions and push extremist ones instead.
And for that reason, I don't buy the argument that regulating these businesses is censorship. Those platforms *are* censorship..
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txtx 🇪🇺
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@nathanael I edited my post to be a little bit friendlier, hope you don't mind 🙏
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txtx 🇪🇺
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@nathanael Anyway sorry for the reply deluge. You are not wrong that there are possibilities to abuse this kind of hypothetical system.
I will admit I get a little bit frustrated since I do think that there are valid uses for authentication. I don't like how it's done now, or many of the current proposals.
But if we don't bother brainstorming better solutions, we'll be stuck with whatever is given to us.
I will admit I get a little bit frustrated since I do think that there are valid uses for authentication. I don't like how it's done now, or many of the current proposals.
But if we don't bother brainstorming better solutions, we'll be stuck with whatever is given to us.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@nathanael It's no wonder that age verification is so popular amongst the general population. People don't want their kids to turn into nazi q-anon weirdos, as it turns out.
Unfortunately, because much of the tech community is only pushing to maintain the broken status quo, politicians are responding without guidelines from the people who have the knowledge to change things for the better.
This is what happens when we point our fingers while burying our head in the sand.
Unfortunately, because much of the tech community is only pushing to maintain the broken status quo, politicians are responding without guidelines from the people who have the knowledge to change things for the better.
This is what happens when we point our fingers while burying our head in the sand.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@nathanael Every social media site is already or is in danger of becoming infested with propaganda agents, nazis, scammers, etc.
Mastodon hasn't been hit as hard yet because it's not as popular — but from what I've read from server owners, it's heading in a bad direction now.
Mastodon hasn't been hit as hard yet because it's not as popular — but from what I've read from server owners, it's heading in a bad direction now.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@nathanael To stop 99.9% of bots, this is enough, so it works.
Russians working at a troll factory are creating millions of accounts. Having a few accounts isn't doing much for them.
It should be possible to ban future tokens from an individual as well. Like any good bar, you ban someone from ever coming again if they are a nasty jerk.
Russians working at a troll factory are creating millions of accounts. Having a few accounts isn't doing much for them.
It should be possible to ban future tokens from an individual as well. Like any good bar, you ban someone from ever coming again if they are a nasty jerk.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@nathanael and anyway, who said there's no way to prevent or curtail abuse?
For example: a hypothetical Mastodon server can be set to never accept more than one token per individual. So, ok, some jerk enables one bot. That's not a great success right? The fewer bots there are, the easier they are to fight.
For example: a hypothetical Mastodon server can be set to never accept more than one token per individual. So, ok, some jerk enables one bot. That's not a great success right? The fewer bots there are, the easier they are to fight.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@nathanael And there are people who hire a kidnapper, assassin, human trafficker...
I don't need to live in a crime filled world because someone found a clever way to abuse a system.
@nixCraft
I don't need to live in a crime filled world because someone found a clever way to abuse a system.
@nixCraft
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@twit_terrorist @nixCraft Click bait.
"CGI also stated that the attackers accessed an older version of the source code and insisted there was “currently no indication of any impact on customers’ production environments, production data, or operational services. Information to the contrary is not accurate.”
The Swedish Tax Agency echoed that position.
“We take all incidents seriously, but we don’t see anything that affects us right now,” IT Director Peder Sjölander said."
"CGI also stated that the attackers accessed an older version of the source code and insisted there was “currently no indication of any impact on customers’ production environments, production data, or operational services. Information to the contrary is not accurate.”
The Swedish Tax Agency echoed that position.
“We take all incidents seriously, but we don’t see anything that affects us right now,” IT Director Peder Sjölander said."
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@nixCraft I should be able to walk to a post office or bank where, after presenting an ID card, they give me a single use token I can use to prove to an organization I'm a real human — or that I'm of a certain age, etc.
I think this should work well enough even if no personal information is stored on that token.
I would happily join a Mastodon server that only accepts authentic users...kind of like the "blue checkmark" of Twitter but democratized so it's not just celebrities.
I think this should work well enough even if no personal information is stored on that token.
I would happily join a Mastodon server that only accepts authentic users...kind of like the "blue checkmark" of Twitter but democratized so it's not just celebrities.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@dalias I agree! It is different, and that difference is the core of what we're talking about here IMO.
The Internet is infested with government agents propagandists bots and criminals posing as real people. I'm saying no, I don't want them.
@violetmadder
The Internet is infested with government agents propagandists bots and criminals posing as real people. I'm saying no, I don't want them.
@violetmadder
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@dalias If a police officer comes to my home and demands a search, and I respond with "papers please" — is my position fascist?
@violetmadder
@violetmadder
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@violetmadder
"How do you regulate the internet
[...] How does that actually work??
These are excellent questions, exactly the kind we should be asking IMO. Some ideas: ban oligarch social platforms completely. Ban foreign platforms when they go over a certain market share. Ban platforms that don't adhere to local law.
I thought this was a niche idea but it turns out that, according to recent polls, some of these are very popular positions here in Europe — including age restrictions.
"How do you regulate the internet
[...] How does that actually work??
These are excellent questions, exactly the kind we should be asking IMO. Some ideas: ban oligarch social platforms completely. Ban foreign platforms when they go over a certain market share. Ban platforms that don't adhere to local law.
I thought this was a niche idea but it turns out that, according to recent polls, some of these are very popular positions here in Europe — including age restrictions.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@violetmadder
There are so many really good things in the world that are neither libertarian nor authoritarian.
There are so many really good things in the world that are neither libertarian nor authoritarian.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@dalias So calling me a brainwormed fascist, this is what you use anonymity for? Really nice. Great argument.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@dalias It looks like none of that is working. ICE is rounding up anyone they want in the US. Iran is crushing protests. Syria? Egypt? China? Russia? Where has social media helped society in public discourse? It's leading to death everywhere. It's a complete failure in every way possible.
So I can't support the status quo.
So I can't support the status quo.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@Nikkileah Correct: Russian bot factories, American social media corporations and think tanks are actively pushing extreme right disinformation across Europe.
This is why X and the majority of foreign social media companies need to be banned in Europe.
Majority foreign ownership of television news is not permissible due to strict media concentration rules in Germany, France and elsewhere. We need to apply the same to social.
This is why X and the majority of foreign social media companies need to be banned in Europe.
Majority foreign ownership of television news is not permissible due to strict media concentration rules in Germany, France and elsewhere. We need to apply the same to social.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@vinishor Why not both? Go after Swiss bank accounts and other illegal funding mechanisms. This is a no-brainer, in my opinion.
Likewise: extremist parties in Europe take advantage of free labor; Russian bot factories are allowed free access to social media in France and all over Europe. No European extremist party can legally afford this inside the EU. Why do we need to suffer it? In my view it's totally absurd.
@passenger
Likewise: extremist parties in Europe take advantage of free labor; Russian bot factories are allowed free access to social media in France and all over Europe. No European extremist party can legally afford this inside the EU. Why do we need to suffer it? In my view it's totally absurd.
@passenger
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@passenger We'll have to disagree here. Russia is allowed full access to social media in Europe, and they're responsible for the surge in right wing parties. Block Russia and you block much of the financing and backing of extreme right parties across all of Europe.
It won't solve everything but it'll be much easier to deal with the extremists left over once their financial and media support is practically extinguished.
It won't solve everything but it'll be much easier to deal with the extremists left over once their financial and media support is practically extinguished.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@passenger And the rise of far right parties can be directly attributed to the rise in anonymous bot armies paid and organized by foreign dictators.
I say: tackle the problem at the core.
I say: tackle the problem at the core.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@bencourtice I think we need a more sophisticated approach. I'll give an example:
Twitter users generally appreciated the blue checkmark that verified official accounts.
I think that, in working democracies, an opt-in verification for citizens could be an answer. This may mean being an ID to a post office, but we can still make it anonymous so that neither the govt nor the server owner knows which ID was used to verify which account.
Then I can safely ignore unverified users.
Twitter users generally appreciated the blue checkmark that verified official accounts.
I think that, in working democracies, an opt-in verification for citizens could be an answer. This may mean being an ID to a post office, but we can still make it anonymous so that neither the govt nor the server owner knows which ID was used to verify which account.
Then I can safely ignore unverified users.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@passenger This just solidifies my opinion that I absolutely do not want to replicate UK politics in the EU. Everything about it sounds like a failure, from using social media to organize crime to having stick fights with thugs.
I demand more from my government.
I demand more from my government.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@passenger So you had criminals using their real names on social media to publicly organize violent criminal activities?
Do you have a source for this?
Do you have a source for this?
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
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@DiogoConstantino Why do you turn to a personal accusation against me? C'mon, we can do better than that. I've been in this field for over a quarter century thanks.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
You're welcome to follow or unfollow me. I'm mostly reposting things I personally find interesting with no theme or curation, so it's gonna be a mess. Real human in Euroland.
mastodon.social
@DiogoConstantino So? What's wrong with trying harder? Is laziness an excuse?
I want more fellow tech people to step away from the libertarian ideals of the current Internet, and start coming up with ways to help save democracy from aggressive states and their disinformation campaigns.
@dalias @mhoye
I want more fellow tech people to step away from the libertarian ideals of the current Internet, and start coming up with ways to help save democracy from aggressive states and their disinformation campaigns.
@dalias @mhoye
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
You're welcome to follow or unfollow me. I'm mostly reposting things I personally find interesting with no theme or curation, so it's gonna be a mess. Real human in Euroland.
mastodon.social
@passenger I seriously question if following around fascists/racists has done any good for society in the last decade or so.
On the contrary it seems like a bad addiction, and it's only getting worse because we're just injecting more of it into our daily lives. Why do we need to listen to them? Are we their lackeys?
@mhoye
On the contrary it seems like a bad addiction, and it's only getting worse because we're just injecting more of it into our daily lives. Why do we need to listen to them? Are we their lackeys?
@mhoye
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
You're welcome to follow or unfollow me. I'm mostly reposting things I personally find interesting with no theme or curation, so it's gonna be a mess. Real human in Euroland.
mastodon.social
@DiogoConstantino
I don't agree with the premise that there is no possibility for a solution that takes various factors into consideration.
@dalias @mhoye
I don't agree with the premise that there is no possibility for a solution that takes various factors into consideration.
@dalias @mhoye
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
You're welcome to follow or unfollow me. I'm mostly reposting things I personally find interesting with no theme or curation, so it's gonna be a mess. Real human in Euroland.
mastodon.social
@passenger @mhoye The UK/Brexit are perfect examples of foreign dictators influencing citizens via social media disinformation campaigns, anonymous & bot accounts etc.
This is not something I want to see further replicated anywhere in the EU.
Being an 'anti-facist' on X is a contradiction. It's like hating on Mickey Mouse at Disneyland.
This is not something I want to see further replicated anywhere in the EU.
Being an 'anti-facist' on X is a contradiction. It's like hating on Mickey Mouse at Disneyland.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
You're welcome to follow or unfollow me. I'm mostly reposting things I personally find interesting with no theme or curation, so it's gonna be a mess. Real human in Euroland.
mastodon.social
@passenger @mhoye Those worst people are mostly bots or fake. Rarely are they using their real names. ICE wear masks.
The ones who go public: they should be in court facing anti hate laws. But instead they're protected because they don't even live in my country. X and Facebook need to be banned where I am to fix this.
The ones who go public: they should be in court facing anti hate laws. But instead they're protected because they don't even live in my country. X and Facebook need to be banned where I am to fix this.
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txtx 🇪🇺
@txtx@mastodon.social
You're welcome to follow or unfollow me. I'm mostly reposting things I personally find interesting with no theme or curation, so it's gonna be a mess. Real human in Euroland.
mastodon.social
0
4
0