LemmeAtEm

The failure of 21st century Marxism is forgetting the material world it was designed to address



👀 @ China and wondering if those hundreds of millions of “21st century Marxists” Communist Party members forgot to address the material world while becoming a superpower and rapidly outpacing the world hegemon empire economically.


(Though for the record, I agree that reading theory is only half of the necessary equation needed for someone to overcome their liberalism.)

You really are demonstrating a complete lack of familiarity with the topic while trying to defend small business owners. Small businesses that hire employees are exploiting workers and stealing the surplus value from their labor just like giant corporations do, full stop. You might have a leg to stand on if you were referring exclusively to co-ops but even those are rife with issues under capitalism (I wrote some about co-ops in another comment) and can only be said to have control over the tiniest fraction of the means of production. Socialism is the proletariat as a class owning the means of production and small business owners are by definition part of the capitalist class - this is about society as a whole, not 3 or 4 guys getting together to buy some machines (owning a lil slice of the MoP) they then use to exploit the people hired to work those machines. Even if those 3 or 4 guys chip in with the work, it’s irrelevant. That’s literally the problem, not the solution.


All of this is just scratching the surface on correcting the misunderstandings you’ve displayed. I don’t have the time or inclination to go into all those corrections and I think it’s safe to say the same is true of OP. If u/Cowbee was in this thread, he would probably be willing to go into it for you but I’m not going to bug him with a ping. However I couldn’t stop you from DMing him if you were genuinely interested in learning. Or you can just check out his reading list which I would encourage any lurking readers, since you mentioned them, to do as well.

Meh, I think it’s fair to make a distinction between the classic German ones and the USians, but I get what you’re saying.

Yeah that’s fine, but just so you know, that character’s name is Homelander and he is the literal American-Nazi imagined ubermensch, the blond haired blue eyed evil superman who manifests whatever he wills through might-makes-right violence. He is the embodiment and epitome of U.S. fascism. The expression on his face in the image you used really does capture the emotion you were going for, without a doubt. It’s just that anyone who knows the character, seeing a pic of him representing a leftist’s thought, may well squint at it with a little suspicion or confusion.

There are liberals right here in this thread defending the poor smol bean fascist small business owners, wtf are you on about? It’s one of their favorite things to do in defense of capitalism because they can pretend like exploitation only exists due to the imaginary “corporatism.”

I agree with OP and frankly if you think liberals don’t support fascist small business owners, or worse you also support them, then I sure hope you don’t think of yourself as a leftist. But I have to admit I did raise an eyebrow at the choice of character used to express the sentiment.

Co-ops are generally good and worth supporting. They are undeniably a better alternative within capitalism to the standard business ownership model and they can be great for raising worker’s class consciousness. That said, the ones you might see in the imperial core or any capitalist nation are not a threat to capitalism itself (if they were, they wouldn’t be allowed to exist). This is in part because they are always going to be fighting an uphill battle in a competitive labor market where all other businesses get to exploit their labor, forcing co-ops to operate at a disadvantage. Even as they are at a disadvantage especially compared to large corporations whose scale alone give them a massive advantage over all small businesses, co-ops in the imperial core still benefit from the primary contradiction of our age which is imperialism, the extraction of super-profits from exploited nations. Which means you will still have co-ops that are reactionary when it comes to dismantling capitalist hegemony. In other words, the workers of a co-op may jointly own their own business and the portion of the means of production within the purview of that business, but ultimately the means of production include all the economic inputs from the rest of the world, like the minerals that co-op must buy from mines in exploited countries or the basic food ingredients grown on land in the global south. This puts the material interests of even the most egalitarian first world co-ops at odds with communism. It has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread that small business owners occupy a spot in the social hierarchy where they are squeezed from both above and below in terms of their material interests, well this is also true of co-ops but perhaps doubly so.


In short, yes worker co-ops are good, and if you can support them over other businesses it’s a good idea to do so. If you are fortunate enough to work in one, great. But don’t expect them to have more revolutionary potential than workers unionizing. You will be disappointed if you think that worker co-ops are the vehicle towards socialism that some of their biggest proponents often like to say they are.

Not sure why you think I’m emotional



Your very first comment to the post was just dripping with unwarranted condescension which is the hallmark of someone who is angry about something and spiteful towards the person they’re replying to. That is all very much emotional. And to be clear, it’s not “wrong” to be emotional, it’s often the appropriate response (though in your case, it was not). Own up to it.



I expressed an opinion that’s different, that’s all.



Oh that’s all? Just an opinion, really? You’re so clearly doing the “I’m not mad, I’m not mad! You’re the one whose mad!” thing and anyone reading this thread can see that, whether they agree with you or not. It’s not wrong to be upset about something, but come on and just own it instead of denying it and embarrassing yourself by pretending otherwise.



The meme was somebody being frustrated hearing liberals tell you to support small business. Idk, nobody tells me how to shop, I just called in to question how often the issue actually happened to the poster to make them post this.



This has nothing to do with anyone “telling you how to shop,” but that that’s where you immediately take it is very telling about your mindset. Do you have any idea what outsized role small business owners (aka petty bourgeoisie) have played in all historical and current fascist movements? Of course you don’t, or you wouldn’t have acted so personally aggrieved, thinking OP was criticizing your shopping habits (lol). Your snarky and sarcastic tantrum about OP’s completely justified seething at the well-known liberal tradition of idolizing some of the most objectively reactionary elements of society only goes to show how deeply ignorant you are about leftist theory and historical reality.



People are just in a rush to grab a pitchfork lol



“Could I be wrong? No, of course not! It’s just that everyone else is out to get me.”

That comment was not about “quantification of suffering,” it was pointing out that untold suffering was already being caused by the US and its war criminal presidents before the most recent one was in office. Yet so many only seemed to notice when it started effecting them personally. Which isn’t surprising, but when Americans who previously just went about their privileged lives up until Trump came along talk as if this juggernaut of misery, cruelty, and death is only a recent thing, that’s very demeaning to the millions who have bore the brunt of that cruelty for decades. It is also frankly chauvanistic. It is very inappropriate to write that off as “quantification of suffering” but it sounds like you just have a beef with the .ml instance.

Oh fuck off, plenty of my Minnesota comrades who are out there fighting ICE are Marxist-Leninist. You dont “see MLs driving out ICE” because we don’t fucking wear ID tags with our ideology on them, fuckwit. You’re just making up shit and running with it (like that Marxists have some “purity” test against voting even though plenty did vote for De la Cruz but refused to vote for a fascist genocidal Democrat which is ACTUALLY what pissed of liberals like you).


Just because we have no interest in partaking in your meaningless ritual doesn’t mean we aren’t out there making up a good portion of the front line against fascism.

Russia goes out of its way to avoid civilian casualties, US goes out of its way to kill as many civilians as possible, and Israel’s raison d’être is to kill civilians - all of them.





And to preemptively respond to the dronies planning to bleat about how Russia is pure evil incarnate orcs and how anyone on the internet who would deny that all Russians are child murdering demons must be a Kremlin bot: You don’t have to approve of Russia to recognize that it has valid material reasons for trying to minimize civilian casualties especially in the areas where the fighting is taking place. It is not a claim that Russia is doing it out of the kindness of their hearts but because it has a vested interest in a population it intends to govern.


The US on the other hand doesn’t intend to govern Iran. It intends to either install a puppet government that does whatever the US wants including that the puppet be responsible for the suppression of the Iranian people. Or just as good if not preferable, the US intends to completely balkanize Iran and transform it into an ungoverned failed state.


Israel does not intend to govern the Gazan people, it intends to wipe them out completely and replace them entirely with Western Jewish settlers.

Ok, so unfortunately it seems you’re not capable of following a conversation or understanding what is happening around you. I tried to help ya out kid, but you just aren’t giving me anything to work with here. Good luck, you’re going to need it.

even though that post was removed by mod for some reason.



Just want to point out that the reason that one comment of yours got removed (I presume - I didn’t do it, I’m not a mod) was because you were explicitly blaming non-voters for the genocide.


There were many many people who didn’t vote in the last election because they saw that both “meaningful” options were fascists, the blue flavored ones who were currently in power at the time and who were already committing the genocide and promising to do it even harder if reelected OR the red (orange) flavored fascist who also promised continued genocide. The people who refused to vote for any genocidal fascists regardless of flavor are not responsible for the fact that the genocide continued unsurprisingly under the red flavor.


So when fans of the blue fascists come in here upset their blue flavor didn’t win and start blaming the rest of us (when the blame actually belongs squarely on the shoulders of their blue candidates for their abject failure to do the bare minimum and simply oppose literal genocide) it just turns into a blue MAGA shit-flinging episode that we’ve already dealt with and debunked countless times. So the mods nip it in the bud and remove comments that wrongly blame people with anti-genocide principles for the genocide. And your comment got a little too close to that line. So, now you know.

lol, I was perfectly calm and not angry in the least. That’s still the case. In fact I was stoned and probably a little too chill when I wrote the above comment. If you read anger into that, you were waaay off.


Tbh, I was feeling generous and taking the time to explain to you why everyone here was downvoting you about things you didn’t seem to understand as a gesture of good faith and good will, trying to help out what appeared to me to be a naive baby leftist (something most of us were at some point), not wanting you to feel bad for getting so trounced.


At this point, assuming you’re sincere and aren’t just a derail troll, I think the only thing for you is to lurk moar.

They mean that you talk big about “our work” as activists, all while you’re here spending your time and a not insignificant amount of your energy posting about a non-issue.


Look, I’m going to level with you here under the assumption your heart is in the right place and that you really do do some actual activism. First of all, you’re making this shit about you in a post detailing the mass murder of school children. You (when not posting cringe on lemmy) are really in the streets protesting against the murderous, imperialist, genocidal actions of the United States? Good! Keep it up, though I hope you’re doing so as part of an organization. But it is hard to imagine that you really are when you’re here, thinking it’s important enough to argue the “not all whites men USians!” line.


Even setting aside the fact that directing your indignant energy towards yourself and demanding others do the same, like you are the aggrieved party in a post about the bombing of children in other countries is cringe… Literally no one who says “the US is a terrorist state” is implying that every individual between Mexico, Canada and the Pacific and Atlantic oceans is a terrorist, or that every single one of them condones the terrorism that the US is committing, or even that some of them aren’t actively in opposition to it. What you are arguing about is not relevant. And what’s more, it’s petty and self centered.