@samir@mastodon.functional.computer
Post #2566098
2024-06-19 17:05 UTC
Replies (37)
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@brennen@federation.p1k3.com 2024-06-19 17:10
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer questions like this get a lot easier to answer once one has concluded that software is fundamentally a harmful activity.
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@rune@fedi.tax 2024-06-19 17:20
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer I see almost a majority are as jaded as I am
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@IngaLovinde@embracing.space 2024-06-19 17:31
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer judging by the job openings I see, I'd say around half of products in IT are very, very harmful, and out of the second half, 90% range from mostly pointless to somewhat/indirectly harmful. Meanwhile I'm a professional programmer :blobcat_googly_notlikethis:
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@marquisdegeek@ohai.social 2024-06-19 17:53
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer but which is it? I do 100% pointless, and 0% harmful!
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@jeremywadhams@tenforward.social 2024-06-19 17:56
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer I imagine if your definition of "pointless" expands to include "ripoffs of things that already exist" the number approaches 90%. I myself spent years writing "Instagram for beauticians" because the venture capitalists were willing to ignore "but why wouldn't the beauticians just use the Instagram they have at home?"
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@levampyre@chaos.social 2024-06-19 18:00
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer My guess is that about 99% of professional devs work on either pointless or actively harmful stuff. But my definition of 'pointless' is wide. Anything that serves capitalist goals, i.e. exists for the purpose of profitability or financial growths is pointless in my view. Most of the not pointless stuff is developed by volunteers, i.e. unpaid devs or scientists, who need software for doing their science, but who are not software engineers by profession.
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@znmeb@pdx.social 2024-06-19 18:30
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer 0 - 25%. Anyone who thinks it's higher has succumbed to propaganda.
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@amgine@mstdn.ca 2024-06-19 18:42
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer A key qualification was the word "professional". In most places 'programmers' are not members of a professional association with codes of conduct/ethics, nor are there standards of education/training, nor licensure or bond. Which ultimately means the professionals do not know they can refuse unethical/immoral work requirements, nor have they organized to enforce their rights.
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@liber@mastodon.social 2024-06-19 18:44
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer Conflating pointless and harmful? Yeah, no vote. Also, "pointless" is so damn subjective. Prima facie, everything I'm not using and I'm not interacting with in any way would be pointless. But that would raise the "pointless" percentage to 99.999...%, and also, the world doesn't revolve around one individual. Then again, excluding ANYTHING that at least SOMEONE uses would drop it to basically 0. IMHO, this applies perfectly: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/4173-there-are-three-types-of-lies----lies-damn-lies
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@hazardius@hachyderm.io 2024-06-19 18:49
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer I like to feel that I'm somewhat positive about this.
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@hisham_hm@mastodon.social 2024-06-19 18:51
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer the number skews way downwards once one realizes that the vast majority of programmers are not only not in Silicon Valley, but really not in tech companies. So many programmers all around the world working in local systems to help drive local businesses of all sizes and local governments. The "tech industry" that is overrepresented in English-speaking social media is only a part of what programming as a global activity really is, even if they hold great power over that whole.
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@crazyeddie@mastodon.social 2024-06-19 18:58
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer Those feeling that way should look at medical programming. It can be damn tedious sometimes but at least what I'm working on right now is trying to help people who are disabled. Feels great to be working on that rather than fleecing lonely, rich old ladies out of their money (slot machines on ipads--play is with virtual money but you buy it with the real thing and they were making MILLIONS from rich old ladies).
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@Methylcobalamin@mastodon.social 2024-06-19 19:11
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer *cough* A.I. *cough* *cough* Creating the dystopia of your childhood sci-fi novels.
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@cunobaros@mendeddrum.org 2024-06-19 19:20
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer My perspective is skewed by having mostly worked on embedded systems the last 30 years. Things like roadside weather monitoring, cell culture growth and analysis systems for medical research, and printers for date markings on eggs. I'm used to working on things that by and large are both useful and arguably beneficial. On the other hand, I did spend a couple of years working for a bank before going back to the embedded world...
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@ekennedy80@fosstodon.org 2024-06-19 19:41
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer can you give me some examples of ‘actively harmful products”?
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@maplesyrup@transfem.social 2024-06-19 19:41
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer never in my career have i worked on something i could stand by ethically on its own merits. now, the fact that it cost the company more to pay me to make it than it will ever bring them income or savings... thats praxis but still overall useless
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@franciswashere@mastodon.social 2024-06-19 19:53
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer Ouch.
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@dym@dym.sh 2024-06-19 19:54
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer pointlessness and harmfulness changes over time of a project, so those percentages are slightly meaningless
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@turtle@turtle.garden 2024-06-19 20:20
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer all of them :>
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@jdoe@freeradical.zone 2024-06-19 20:20
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer It is known that in the software industry about 80% of work goes to trash, so essentially pointless. But one can't know which until they try.
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@utopiarte@tupambae.org 2024-06-19 20:58
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer Actually everyone who is coding for non free open source software. That's probably like 99%. Considering work as synonym for paid labor, it would be actually very interesting to know how many are coding free software in their spare time.
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@swieton@hachyderm.io 2024-06-19 21:04
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer I’m a little optimistic on this front, actually. I think grifts like AI and crypto get disproportionate attention, but I think an awful lot of developers are just keeping the lights on at boring, normal, non-tech companies.
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@BiggestBulb@mstdn.social 2024-06-19 21:30
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer as a programmer, I would say 50-75%. Most programmers I know are either clinging to FAANG jobs for the life of them (which are, obviously, evil - I long for the days of "don't be evil") or they are in some random startup creating a super shitty, niche product that has no possibility for a future. Most of the second category is caused by middle managers fundamentally not knowing what is right from a product point of view, but doing shit anyway.
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@mikej@mastodon.online 2024-06-19 21:53
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer Most professional programmers are making sure the accounting system continues to work and other similarly mundane things. Not pointless, just not exciting.
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@VATVSLPR@c.im 2024-06-19 22:08
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer I suspect the majority of professional programmers are doing something tedious and uninteresting that basically amounts to "convert company business logic into code".
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@lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me 2024-06-19 22:32
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer I'd say 80~90% specially due to the pointless part.
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@cJ@mastodon.zougloub.eu 2024-06-19 22:39
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer You could formulate the question otherwise, like if you are writing software, on a scale of 1 to 4, how pointless or harmful is it? And define pointless... like, #libcaca is uber-pointless but probably not harmful, compared to a video game, casino software, social media, emissions-cheating firmware, autonomous weapons?
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@Phosphenes@glasgow.social 2024-06-19 22:40
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer A good fraction of those jobs were mine.
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@harmoniousanger@zeroes.ca 2024-06-19 23:03
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer That's funny, I was just reading this earlier: https://ludic.mataroa.blog/blog/the-complex-problem-of-lying-for-jobs/
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@dalias@hachyderm.io 2024-06-19 23:48
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer The ones who are working on stuff that's not pointless or actively harmful mostly aren't getting paid for it, and I guess thereby don't fall under "professional"... 🤦
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@epicdemiologist@wandering.shop 2024-06-20 00:29
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer "Shapes on shapes, wasted time/Pointless points along a line;/Head down, straight on, you'll be fine." --Jonathan Coulton, "Robots.txt"
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@pinskia@hachyderm.io 2024-06-20 00:38
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer There are few things here. Is there ever a point to anything? Also hasn't all progress been pointless or actively harmful to some folks? This is a philosophy question that most folks don't like or even think about. Progress for progress sake is very harmful. A lot of medical progress has been very harmful to some group of people because people think they have the moral high ground but most don't. Programmers are not immune to this too.
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@zperk13@mastodon.sdf.org 2024-06-20 00:51
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer pointless and actively harmful are very different things
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@Linux@kitty.social 2024-06-20 01:50
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer 50-75% Those evil corporations, sadly, pay bills.
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@CarlMuckenhoupt@mastodon.social 2024-06-20 01:54
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer This figure used to be higher. Nowadays, a lot of professional programmers are working on pointless or harmful *services* instead. It’s not that software is intrinsically antisocial, though. It’s just that prosocial programming tends to not pay.
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@AlgoCompSynth@universeodon.com 2024-06-20 01:55
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer 0-25%. Anyone who thinks it's higher than that has succumbed to propaganda.
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@dneto@mastodon.gamedev.place 2024-06-20 03:02
@samir@mastodon.functional.computer I think the vast majority of programmers are doing business logic inside non tech companies. Banks and insurance, manufacturing. Think: database procedures and accounting. COBOL. The vast majority.