You’re just not accurately describing American libertarianism…it does, indeed, have wealthy people behind it, because American libertarians also loves a strong state that can fix regulations in their favour. Peter Thiel and some of the Koch’s are “libertarians”, ffs. I think what’s happening here is you’re describing the Dave Smith party/partisan type libertarians, and not the movement at large. The niche that runs a presidential candidate and puts small business owners on stage at the convention is a “boutique” brand of libertarianism, and doesn’t represent the much larger group of people who, for example, Donald Trump shows up and tries to woo: yeah, he got bood in the building…but he was talking to all the libertarians who were threatening to abandon his coalition. I mean…I stand by what I said…your definitions weren’t accurate…but knowing that you’re a Marxist now means this is likely just an “academic” issue. Your leftist definition was confusing without that context. I don’t care for anarchists, really…even tho I occasionally caucus with them. I used to hate them as much as right libertarians - horse shoe theory and all - but I’ve softened because it’s time to coalesce…strategy almost doesn’t matter any more…we need action. I’m am super thankful they haven’t been polluting “our” protests to the degree they used to.

It isn’t just academic, and the fact that you can find self-professed libertarians among the wealthiest capitalists doesn’t mean they agree with the actual ideas of “small government capitalism.” The wealthiest aren’t libertarians, by and large, but at this moment more fascist than anything. What drives someone to be a libertarian? Someone who feels crushed by the state while also disapproving of social services, ie the small business owners. The fact that libertarianism is primarily driven by small business owners doesn’t mean they are the only libertarians. Marxism-Leninism is a proletarian ideology, but also has class traitors. The boutique libertatianism you speak of isn’t just the conventions, but people you run into in real life from time to time, and they usually are in that sole proprietor/small business owner class. As for Marxism, Marx outlined the law of value, dialectical and historical materialism, as well as scientific socialism. He didn’t create a model, correct, but he did arm us with how we should go about creating a socialist state. Marxism has been put into practice by groups like the bolsheviks, creating Marxism-Leninism, which then has been put into practice around the world. Marx was helpful not just for the why of capitalism being bad, but how to end it and begin socialism.

Yeah…we’re just characterizing them differently. It’s all mud…because they’re all dishonest. Whether they’re MAGA or fascist or libertarian depends on the lens/forum etc. I’d imagine half of the people who call themselves libertarians just like the word because they want to own the word liberty and own the definition of “freedom”. It’s like that bullshit “we’re not a Democracy we’re a Republic” stuff - they don’t know what any of these words mean, they just want to sound like they’re smart and principled when they’re really just bigoted, selfish and hypocritical. I mean…I’m never going to agree that “small business owners” are the core of the libertarian movement…because small business functionally doesn’t even exist. Most of these idiots calling themselves small business owners or entrepreneurs are just glorified employees or franchise managers. We know the entire movement has big big money behind it…and the small business fantasy is what they’re using as window dressing. As for Marx…you well know that if you put any two leftists in a room they’re going to disagree on what’s important from all of Marx’s and his associated philosophers and economists’ writings. Marx was a visionary…and I almost liken him more to Gene Roddenberry, than I do a practical economist. Like…he gets into the nitty gritty about transitional social credits and all that, but it’s a type of fiction. I, like I said before, view Marxism and it’s offshoots as a necessary lens to view capitalism through. I think it was really cool what came out of Germany after reunification, and it’s sad to see the capitalists chip away at what they achieved. I’d love to see the day where we reach a critical mass and socialism is attempted in earnest…we just haven’t really seen that and I know I won’t (I’m 53).

Libertarianism isn’t driven by the haute bourgeoisie though, that’s currently more neoliberalism and fascism. Libertarianism is primarily driven by people that own HVAC companies with a dozen people, and these people can be steered by Thiel types but ultimately by numbers its the small business owners pushing it. As for Marxism, Germany post-reunification was a return to fascism, not socialism. The gains achieved by the socialists in the East were erased, officials excised in show trials, and erased. Socialism has been achieved already, in the former USSR, and today in the PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, and more. Public ownership is the principle aspect of their economies, and the working classes are in control of the state. I think you’re dramatically misanalyzing socialism right now.

I think maybe we can agree that we’re talking about different thing re libertarianism. But I will say…show me one of these supposed small business owners, and I’ll show you an employee or a liar. Yes, I predicted we’d have a different view of the world…like I said…two leftists can always be trusted to radically disagree about everything. I look at early reunification Germany as a “victory” for the moderation of capitalism…but I will agree that the fascists put what they needed to in place to destroy the socialists that the “liberals” accepted, at first. I’ll never agree that Russia was socialist…nor will I agree that China is. They had/have very heavy socialist elements…but Russia was ultimately an oligarchical kleptocracy and China is a weird hybrid that celebrates capitlmalism at the party level…and uses socialism to control the masses. If I were to view a state as a socialist success…I’d need to see the party/power apparatus less entrenched, and the leaders of the day living like the people. I believe that Latin American socialism could have been great…had it not been perpetually obfuscated and corrupted by the US.

Libertarianism often arises organically, though, not just from the outside. It arises due to class interests. People can manipulate this, and do, but the origins are ultimately petty bourgeois ideology. As for the USSR, it was a socialist economy, not an “oligarchical kleptocracy.” The economy was democratically run and centrally planned, with public ownership as the principle aspect of the economy. This is straightforwardly socialist. The PRC does not celebrate “capitalism.” The usage of markets and mixed forms of ownership for small and medium firms subservient to the public sector is a form of socialist market economy. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the working classes democratically control the state. Latin American socialism is great. Cuba is a standout example, and Venezuela and Nicaragua are increasingly socializing. They are under constant siege, but are nevertheless rising. Ultimately, I’m not sure what you think socialism is for you to have this view so contrary to Marxism.

I think you’re an idealist :) Contrary to Marxism? I think you misread what I’ve said. I think Marx was a visionary, and I’d like to live in his world…I think I’m just more practical than you are.

It’s the opposite, I’m a dialectical materialist, and am focused on pragmatism. Your assessment of the USSR, PRC, etc is idealist in nature and looks at the state not as by its class character, but as something beyond class. This confusion leads you to see administration in a socialist economy as “kleptocracy.” Same with your analysis of the PRC, conflating the presence of private property with the absence of socialism. Erasure of dialectical materialism, and looking at components of an economy outside of their context within said economy is closer to metaphysics and a rejection of Marxism.