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Post #4139030

2026-07-27 14:21 UTC

@jfdm@discuss.systems I’m familiar with old school tactic automation, and have even attended a summer school on F*. I believe that the LLM world really does improve the automation drastically on what we had before. You may very well be correct that things still don’t work out. I can see a bunch of ways that it still goes wrong when trying to use something like Lean for quotidian software engineering. To give one example, perhaps we find that, with much more detailed interfaces, we just can’t compose things. The detailed interfaces were previously implicit, so you could ignore the mismatch and bumble along. I.e. maybe that wasn’t the problem, but actually a critical part of how things sort of manage to work. That would be a depressing outcome! I think we haven’t really explored this in normal contexts. I feel that the overhead of these languages previously precluded their use in all but specialised domains. Now that the overhead is much less, I think it’s an interesting avenue to explore. But certainly not a guaranteed success.

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  • @jfdm@discuss.systems 2026-07-27 14:28

    @agl@infosec.exchange > I think we haven’t really explored this in normal contexts. Indeed, there are actually "dozens" of us who want to, and are exploring, how to bring this interesting paradigm to others. As well as exploring what this paradigm gives us in the first place.. > I feel that the overhead of these languages previously precluded their use in all but specialised domains. Now that the overhead is much less, I think it’s an interesting avenue to explore. But certainly not a guaranteed success. Indeed! If you are not familiar with it already, you should explore: https://hacspec.org/ It shows one way of doing things. There are, however, other dependently typed languages (Agda/Idris2) which provide a different view (compared to Roq/Lean) of working with the machine to build verified software.

    Open ##4215123