Post #1728984
2026-04-19 07:16 UTC
Take a set, ๐ฅ. Is it finite or infinite? Well what definition do you use?
โ โ๐ฆ โ ฯโ ๐ฅ โ ๐ฆ ; There is a natural number, ๐ฆ, such that you may may map ๐ฆ one-to-one onto the set ๐ฅ, enumerating each of its members. So ๐ฅ is finite for the same reason { 1, 2, 3 } is finite.
โก ยฌ โ๐ง โ (On โ ฯโ) ๐ฅ โ ๐ง ; There is no such infinite ordinal, ๐ง, such that you may map ๐ง one-to-one onto the set ๐ฅ. So ๐ฅ is finite because ฯโ, the smallest infinite ordinal, cannot be mapped 1-to-1 into it.
Do โ and โก say the same thing?
Obviously, โ implies โก in all cases for if it didn't there would be at least one natural number, ๐ฆ, which may be used to enumerate at least one infinite ordinal, ๐ง.
But does โก imply โ ? If โก doesn't imply โ then there must be sets which can't be be placed side-by-side with any infinite ordinal and yet can't be placed side-by-side with any finite ordinal. In short, there must be sets which can't be well-ordered. But the axiom of choice says all sets may be well-ordered, even if it doesn't provide a recipe.
Not only does the axiom of choice say all sets can be well-ordered and thus โก implies โ , but assuming โก implies โ is equivalent to the axiom of choice. It was invented by Zermelo for this purpose and so that โ , โก, and 6 alternative definitions of "finite set" all mean the same thing.
The axiom of choice is basically saying the border between finite and infinite has nothing trapped in it.
#AxiomOfChoice #OrdinalNumbers #SetTheory #FiniteSet
Replies (1)
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@skewray@mathstodon.xyz 2026-04-19 15:06
@Arpie4Math@mathstodon.xyz Nice write-up. So, here's the question: Axiom of Choice breaks measure theory. One then concludes that asserting every set has a well-defined measure (excluding 0 & โ) implies...what? Does it mean that measure theory requires that mysterious border material? Does it mean that measure theory needs non-orderable sets? Is this an open problem? Measure theory + AC breaks when there is a group symmetry, so simple symbolic logic may not be sufficient. Or is that the clue - a group symmetry makes something non-orderable?