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@Arpie4Math@mathstodon.xyz

Post #1728984

2026-04-19 07:16 UTC

Take a set, ๐‘ฅ. Is it finite or infinite? Well what definition do you use? โ‘  โˆƒ๐‘ฆ โˆˆ ฯ‰โ‚€ ๐‘ฅ โ‰ˆ ๐‘ฆ ; There is a natural number, ๐‘ฆ, such that you may may map ๐‘ฆ one-to-one onto the set ๐‘ฅ, enumerating each of its members. So ๐‘ฅ is finite for the same reason { 1, 2, 3 } is finite. โ‘ก ยฌ โˆƒ๐‘ง โˆˆ (On โˆ– ฯ‰โ‚€) ๐‘ฅ โ‰ˆ ๐‘ง ; There is no such infinite ordinal, ๐‘ง, such that you may map ๐‘ง one-to-one onto the set ๐‘ฅ. So ๐‘ฅ is finite because ฯ‰โ‚€, the smallest infinite ordinal, cannot be mapped 1-to-1 into it. Do โ‘  and โ‘ก say the same thing? Obviously, โ‘  implies โ‘ก in all cases for if it didn't there would be at least one natural number, ๐‘ฆ, which may be used to enumerate at least one infinite ordinal, ๐‘ง. But does โ‘ก imply โ‘ ? If โ‘ก doesn't imply โ‘  then there must be sets which can't be be placed side-by-side with any infinite ordinal and yet can't be placed side-by-side with any finite ordinal. In short, there must be sets which can't be well-ordered. But the axiom of choice says all sets may be well-ordered, even if it doesn't provide a recipe. Not only does the axiom of choice say all sets can be well-ordered and thus โ‘ก implies โ‘ , but assuming โ‘ก implies โ‘  is equivalent to the axiom of choice. It was invented by Zermelo for this purpose and so that โ‘ , โ‘ก, and 6 alternative definitions of "finite set" all mean the same thing. The axiom of choice is basically saying the border between finite and infinite has nothing trapped in it. #AxiomOfChoice #OrdinalNumbers #SetTheory #FiniteSet

Replies (1)

  • @skewray@mathstodon.xyz 2026-04-19 15:06

    @Arpie4Math@mathstodon.xyz Nice write-up. So, here's the question: Axiom of Choice breaks measure theory. One then concludes that asserting every set has a well-defined measure (excluding 0 & โˆž) implies...what? Does it mean that measure theory requires that mysterious border material? Does it mean that measure theory needs non-orderable sets? Is this an open problem? Measure theory + AC breaks when there is a group symmetry, so simple symbolic logic may not be sufficient. Or is that the clue - a group symmetry makes something non-orderable?

    Open ##2566014